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RE: Photography should be removed
https://www.amtgard-eh.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=7805		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Aylin_Karyn [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  RE: Photography should be removed
Forest Evergreen wrote:
Just to add my 2 cents...

...And on a final note, photography is a crap category and should be removed.

Have a nice day.


If photography should go, poetry should too.

edited by Tigger only to add the quote for context.
Author:  Forest Evergreen [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon Master XXXII: Reign L
Aylin_Karyn wrote:
If photography should go, poetry should too.

Can you explain your reasoning on that?
Author:  Aylin_Karyn [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon Master XXXII: Reign L
It can't be scored objectively. Writing conventions don't apply--capitalization, punctuation, conjugation, etc. A pretty poem doesn't mean it's any good, and the reverse is true as well.

Why do you think photography is a crap category?
Author:  Forest Evergreen [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon Master XXXII: Reign L
There are 2 reasons I hate photography as a category.

1.) The majority of people entering it / juging it have no clue about photography. They just enter something that looks neat and the judges look at the photo and decide if...well...it looks neat.

Photography itself is an artform, but people generally are not versed in the mechanics behind what is needed to make a good picture. I have an amazing camera. I can point and click and get 4 shots per second. Out of all that, I can select 1 that looks neat, and hope the judges like it, but I didn't do anything special to take it. Which brings up point two.

2.) It is the 1 category where the entrant need not have any skill or put in any real effort towards the entry.

As shown above, it is the technology, far more than the person using it, that affects getting a "neat" picture.


PLEASE!!!! Do not think that I am bashing photography in general or saying it is simple to do well. I am saying the opposite. Being a good photographer is hard and takes a lot of skill and practice. But in our game that skill is near impossible to judge because the judges are not well versed in that art form, and most people taking the pics are using such advanced cameras, that the person pushing the button is far less a factor in the outcome than the device used. (Since most people entering photography are just pointing and clicking and not using all the manual settings on the camera to get the photo they want.)

On a total side not, it is also the least period category we have and was one of the last to be addedto A&S competitions.
Author:  Aylin_Karyn [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dragon Master XXXII: Reign L
Forest Evergreen wrote:
There are 2 reasons I hate photography as a category.There are 2 reasons I hate photography as a category.

1.) The majority of people entering it / juging it have no clue about photography. They just enter something that looks neat and the judges look at the photo and decide if...well...it looks neat.

Photography itself is an artform, but people generally are not versed in the mechanics behind what is needed to make a good picture. I have an amazing camera. I can point and click and get 4 shots per second. Out of all that, I can select 1 that looks neat, and hope the judges like it, but I didn't do anything special to take it. Which brings up point two.

2.) It is the 1 category where the entrant need not have any skill or put in any real effort towards the entry.

As shown above, it is the technology, far more than the person using it, that affects getting a "neat" picture.


Hm, maybe. I think it's usually pretty obvious when a person knows what they're doing with framing, focus, cropping, and especially post-processing. As simple as a camera should be, I can't hand mine to just anyone and ask them to take a picture of me--they are usually terrible just because the person doesn't take a lot of photos, doesn't know how to focus or frame the shot even with an easy "point&click" camera.

There is an element of luck to catching the right moment of an action sequence, less luck needed with burst shooting. But it still takes a person thousands of shots and years of practice to regularly produce quality shots. Consider the hours spent poring over hundreds of frames, editing dozens, and finding one that is art-worthy.

I don't have a high-end camera or anything more than the most basic photo-editing software that came with my computer, but can still produce quality entries with a point and shoot, and I enjoy the challenge of doing so. (Despite it being a wonky category with unqualified judges.)

Professional wedding photography is a good example: It's very obvious when someone's aunt with a high-end camera is shooting the wedding versus a professional with years of experience. I'm not saying your talented friend with a DLSR can't do a great job of it, but he won't get as many quality shots as the pro would.
Author:  Yufuki [ Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE: Photography should be removed
I'm with the "least period" camp on photography. In parallel with the guideline that personae be plausibly in existence in the 1600s, all other A&S categories seem to fall at least marginally within that time frame. Photography fits more into the Steampunk genre of fantasy and the late 1700s of history--both somewhat contested as to whether they fit into the realm of Amtgard.

I could also argue that certain subjects in photography are more relevant to Amtgard than others--action shots of players, candids of players in garb, documentation of workshops/construction, fantastical settings and the like can be considered just as relevant as nonfiction publication pieces (journalism articles) and written project documentation, and could then be judged on the merits of their relevance and effectiveness as a tool of communicating as well as their artistic and technical composition.
Author:  Aylin_Karyn [ Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE: Photography should be removed
To expand upon Yufuki/Arlani's point:

Although certain publications such as news articles are non-historical, they do serve the purpose of expanding awareness about Amtgard.

On the one hand, singular photography entries are also non-historical and may not be part of a published piece. However, these same photos do receive public viewership on sites like Facebook, Flickr, individual kingdom websites, etc., and that does spread awareness about the game to any non-members who see them.

I believe it is good for the game to encourage players to produce quality photographs of it and that removing the category from A&S is pointedly DIScouraging.

To return to Forest's first point:
Quote:
1.) The majority of people entering it / judging it have no clue about photography. They just enter something that looks neat and the judges look at the photo and decide if...well...it looks neat.


The fact that few players or few judges are particularly knowledgeable about a specific skill has never been adequate reason for excluding anything from A&S tourneys. This is why we have write-ups as well as documents, forums, and workshops targeted at teaching individuals how to judge different things. It would take anyone 5-10 minutes on Google to learn the basic of what makes a photo good, or better than "neat looking."

How boring would A&S become if we were to exclude everything novel or rare because the artists are new to it and learning and the judges are too?
Author:  Zelodie-Local-Satyr [ Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE: Photography should be removed
Aylin_Karyn wrote:
How boring would A&S become if we were to exclude everything novel or rare because the artists are new to it and learning and the judges are too?


For example, poetry, right? [smilie=icon_twisted.gif]
Author:  Aylin_Karyn [ Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE: Photography should be removed
Zelodie-Local-Satyr wrote:
Aylin_Karyn wrote:
How boring would A&S become if we were to exclude everything novel or rare because the artists are new to it and learning and the judges are too?


For example, poetry, right? [smilie=icon_twisted.gif]

Seriously, though, well said. [smilie=icon_cheesygrin.gif]


And belly dance.
And fire performance.
And carpentry, perhaps.
The list could go on.
Author:  Forest Evergreen [ Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE: Photography should be removed
I don't see how in those other categories, the mojority of the work is being done by the device / computer.

Again, I am not saying that photography is an easy skill to master. I am saying it doesn't fit with amtgard and what equipment you have is far more important than who pushes the button.
Author:  Aylin_Karyn [ Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE: Photography should be removed
I think that’s like saying my sewing machine does most of the work. If the technology is so advanced, I would expect to see far more jaw-dropping photos of Amtgard than there are. So many players have cameras and post their photos for all to see; yet much of it looks all the same, especially combat. Such a dynamic sport should allow for impressive photographic coverage, but how often do these casual/amateur/hobby photographers produce quality shots?
Author:  Forest Evergreen [ Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE: Photography should be removed
Unless you have a sewing machine that cuts fabric and sews it together without you having to touch anything, I don't see the comparison at all.
Author:  Aylin_Karyn [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE: Photography should be removed
I have to cut the fabric, iron, pin, and trim just as I have to frame a shot, crop, edit, resize, print, matte, and frame. I maintain that if the equipment were doing all the work, we'd see a lot more good photos out there than we do.
Author:  Forest Evergreen [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE: Photography should be removed
I guess we just have to agree to disagree. When all I have to do is push a button (be in on the camera or a click of the mouse) then I am not doing anything near what other A&S entries require me to do.

And yes, the technology of the camera is far more important that the technology of other A&S categories.
Author:  Diestro [ Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE: Photography should be removed
I think photography is a bona fide art, and I think that if we include it, and the judges aren't adequately prepared, we need to educate the judges.

However, it's not a period art. I'd rather see photography folded into Rose, or if it's fantasy themed artistic photography, into 2D art.
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