The Kingdom of the Emerald Hills

Now, here’s a thread devoted to discussion about the “new” rules.
I’m still not sure how one can call them the “new” rules when they aren’t in place yet.
But never mind that...

So, with this thread in mind, I ask the same question I’ve been asking…
(let’s see if I get an answer)

How many abilities, traits, weapons, classes, magic systems, lives and battlegames can they remove, rename, re-vamp and re-style while still trying to convince us all that it is in fact “Amtgard”…???
How many changes can they make & still call it the “same”.
20…? 30…? 100…? The entire Book…?

I’m not going to nit & pick with someone about each little detail that I don’t agree with.
I’m not attacking… I’m asking.
I’m not trying to decipher the code or argue my points.
I’m trying to make a comparison between what is Amtgard and what constitutes a different game entirely.
Seem to remember when HFS was forming, they had to differ from Amtgard by a certain percentage in order to be considered a different game.

I would just like to know the percentage of change between 7.7 and V8.

Would it kill ya to just answer the question…???
Anybody....

Delphos asked:"Seem to remember when HFS was forming, they had to differ from Amtgard by a certain percentage in order to be considered a different game."



20%.

I'm glad you are joining in on the V8 rules process; all of us coming together to build a better rules set is really a huge step forward for Amtgard. Between now and 2014 every Amtgardian has a chance to personally have an impact on what the new rules look like and really be part of our great system. All that is required is the desire to be heard and get involved.

What specifically strikes you as not worth the change? Could you give some actionable examples of what you think shouldn't have been changed and why?

In reference to your question: I think that's probably the wrong approach. You can't compare V8 to V7 because, while 95% of it is the same, almost all of it has been cleaned up with clearer wording. For instance the States system seems like a change, but in reality it just standardizes a plethora of game mechanics that we already have in place but are worded a little bit different in each place they come up. There are over ten different versions of 'Out of Game' in V7 all of which are meant to function the same but are worded slightly differently. As a result a player has to be personally familiar with each and ever ability that creates an 'Out of Game' effect in order to understand how to play on the field with those spells. In V8 we took the concept of 'Out of Game', standardized how it should work, and then used the word 'Insubstantial' as a definition for what the abilities do. Now a player only has to understand 'Insubstantial' rather than knowing Teleport, Camouflage, Circle of Protection, Sleep, Mass Sleep, Lost, Banish, etc. It makes the game less complex without removing depth. In fact, the States system makes things so much cleaner that we have been able to add depth while removing complexity meaning all players have more options personally but still find it easier to play the game.

So 'Lost' isn't any different in V8 vs V7 in terms of how it plays, but the wording that describes how it plays did get updated. Does that mean 'Lost' has changed? Or does it mean that 'Lost' is the same? Many of the mechanics in the game are like that. The combat rules work exactly how we play every weekend in parks around the DFW area. The only thing different about them is that we wrote out the unwritten rules and clarified the language to match with how Amtgard is actually played at parks. The rulebook shouldn't be a set of vague concepts that requires an experienced Amtgardian to get right. The rulebook should, itself, prepare you for going out to a park and playing Amtgard.

Ultimately I feel that the most important part of Amtgard is getting together with other players and having fun. Any rulebook that facilitates that is Amtgard to the core. That fact combined with the fact that V8 feels like Amtgard when you play it on the field and I think you've got a winner.


For reference you can find the current version of the new rules here: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6hc-J ... ExNSVlqa3c

Thanks,
Brennon

I think what you're describing "at its core" is more than a 5% change...
When you blend in five or so abilities into one effect, you loose the substance of each ability as individual. You box it all together, but you forget what its suppose to be in the first place. ToD vs. Quivering Palm... same effect, different ability. Simple is not Better.

Foam Weapon Strategy and Combat System

That’s what V8 is…

What it is not, is a Live Action Character Driven Role-play Adventure with a base-line of rules for a loose structure, freedom of creation and persona development.

But, as we all know… Amtgard hasn’t been that in years…!!!

So, on the one hand…
I agree that the entire “game” is broken and has been since before 7.0.
On the other hand…
I don’t think V8 addresses, much less fixes any of the problems that have brought us to this point.

I believe it takes Amtgard to an entirely different area of Recreational Activity.
It solidifies the sport aspect and takes away the Fantasy RPG that once defined our group.
Points & winning become the only goal and there are no consequences other than that.

The debate ranges back & forth over the complexity vs. simplicity…
I think it rings of both…but in opposing places.

Some rules become more complex for the sake of realism, while others are simplified for ease and speed. Fast-paced battlegames without depth. Game-masters who decide how many lives and what classes to play. Games in a Box. Keep it simple… Stupid.

It lacks Soul. It lacks Character.
It lacks depth and consequences.
It lacks progression.
That’s the best way I can put it.

I know that V8 will pass.
It is inevitable…

Will we have alternatives?
That is the true question.

I think that we will…
But perhaps I’m merely suffering from Delirium.

just sayin’

Reality vs. Fantasy

They say that they are updating the game to reflect the way it is currently played.
That they have to go back to the core and make these changes, yet it amounts to only 5%.

I find that hard to believe… it can’t be both ways.

I counted several spells that have been removed… reason given…
“unique effect, useless”.
One of them was a “Wind” spell…
One of my fondest memories, is of 200 plus Amtgardians being blown 100 feet backwards by a wind spell. (out-of-game/insubstantial/ etc.)
In V8, it just won’t be the same.

I question the complexity of armor compared to that of weapons.
Weight vs. Authenticity…
“…we don’t fight with couch-foam and PVC anymore…”
This is very true.
But the armor rules have become more real while the weapons are pixie sticks.
Sold by Brennon himself… surprise!

Reality vs. Fantasy…
Don’t swords have weight too?
All swords wound the same? In reality?
What, still no draw-cuts?

The philosophies describing the classes refer only to positions and objectives…
And are completely devoid of depth and character.
The over-view of battlegames are flat, lifeless and one dimensional.
They lack any far-reaching themes, drama, conflict and resolution.
“Tote that barge & ring that bell” hardly qualify as high drama RPG.

For a “hack & slash” mentality that likes short-attention-span games…
It looks as though they will have all they can handle in V8.
But for those who want something more, it is sorely lacking.

It you really want to go back to the “core” of Amtgard…
Take more from the first 5 editions and less from 6…
Keep nothing from version 7.0 onward.

But, I forgot…
The purpose is to change Amtgard at its “core” not go back to it.

95% unchanged…
Yeah Right…!!!

Character, drama, and conflict/resolution is created by the players, not the rules. The rules just make it possible by being as usable as possible and providing for depth. We are attempting to add in a roleplay framework and some setting information into the rules, but ultimately you can't legislate the sort of behavior you are referring to. Moreover even if you could it wouldn't be a good idea. Each six-month reign brings a new theme, new leadership, and new backstory. It would be a terrible idea to try and dictate how people have to roleplay and what describes acceptable roleplay. Some reigns are undead invasion. Some are Time Lords. Some are Steampunk. Some are about invading other kingdoms while some are about Mad Max style post-apocalyptic survival. They are all fun and cool, why try and limit it?

For what it's worth, Amtgard has never been like what you are referring to. Bolt, Asmund, Gilos, and a variety of other people who were around when the game started in '81 and have been here the whole time have stated that Amtgard is now what it always has been: Guys dressing up in funny clothes and hitting each other with sticks using slightly medieval flair. I suppose they could all be lying, but I can't imagine why that would be.

If you want Amtgard to have more drama or what have you, I think that rests on you and your park to create that environment. Most people don't really like drama, though. They want to have fun with their friends and enjoy the game.

Anyway, you think the Wind spell should be added back in. What else do you feel was unnecessarily removed?

All of us from those early days of Amtgard see our experiences differently…
That is to say, that neither Gilos nor Asmund nor Bolt may be “lying”, they just don’t recall, reflect or even view those days the way myself and others do.
Perhaps you should broaden your horizons and your references a bit beyond those who see our society as nothing more than…
”Guys dressing up in funny clothes and hitting each other with sticks using slightly medieval flair.”

The esoteric and intrinsic value of what I am trying to impart seem to be lost on someone who cannot think beyond a one dimensional field game.

The call of “rise & fight again” carries with it a certain quality that is lost when homogenized into a simple “undead minion”.

A casual hand on the shoulder followed by a softy spoken “Touch of Death”…
Will become a thing of the past in V8.

Sure, drama isn’t driven by the rules, but the progression of what could be long-term RP is stifled by attention deficit battles which are completely governed by Game-masters and don’t allow, much less encourage, free-form player-driven character development and interactions.

To call what I play as forcing an agenda, is simply false.
To concentrate on one line items, is narrow minded at best and misses the scope of my arguments.

V8 strips the nuances & subtleties of abilities and groups them into effects.
If you add up all the spells, abilities and traits that have been removed, reduced, replaced and revamped… I’m sure the sum would far exceed a 5% overall change.

But for your purposes, keeping the name Amtgard and retaining the existing number of participants, is what’s important here…
Without that… you would have to start from the ground up.

So, stick with your story, that V8 is only a 5% change.
Re-create the Amt-world in this image and set it upon the populace…
And we will all see what happens then.

just sayin’

Okay, so they aren't lying but they don't view it the way you do. So we have two groups of people who have a different opinion of what the group is. That sounds largely like now. You view it one way, other people view it another. I know in the fifteen years I've been playing I have never seen anything like what you are referring to on a regular basis. The work Sparhawk put into his reign was very visually exciting and thematic. The work that the Justicars and Green Dragons did for Blaise's reign contributed to a lot of neat stuff. That was all just good fun, though, and nobody took it seriously or dramatically.

Other than those two periods (and really it was just two or three things each reign) nothing else really stands out to me as particularly exceptional in terms of atmosphere. Also, neither of those two periods had anything to do with the rules. They were all atmosphere and presentation. It could have been done without rules entirely. The SCA, for instance, does what most many consider a better job at delivering the sort of atmosphere you are talking about and they have almost no rulebook to speak of. They have a manual of arms and some regulations, but nothing like our rulebook. NERO, on the other hand, has an enormous rulebook with far more complexity (if not depth) than anything we use and also produces a more RPG environment. So whatever makes Amtgard society what it chooses to be isn't the rules. Amtgard culture is the way it is because that's what Amtgardians prefer: A casual game for casual players with an emphasis on having fun and making friends.



Again, in the fifteen years I've been playing I haven't met any other long-term player who has the same view on it that you do. I'm sure there are a couple out there, but they must be pretty rare. What other long-term players can you point to as examples?



I can appreciate that you have a specific thing that you enjoy. I can appreciate that you want Amtgard to provide that for you. However, I'm not in the business of providing that for you, and neither is Amtgard. I do rulebooks. Rulebooks are tools players use to build whatever gaming environment they prefer. Our old rulebook doesn't have the flexibility and depth needed to account for all of the games people are playing, hence the update. Amtgard is in the business of being whatever it's constituent members want it to be in aggregate.



Undead Minion contains the phrase "Rise and fight again." The incantation for it is also a lot more RPish these days:
"Flesh rots, bones break, skulls sigh, spirits take
let the power of my will descend on thee
Flesh rots, bones break, skulls sigh, spirits take
let the power of my will restore they spirit
Flesh rots, bones break, skulls sigh, spirits take
let the power of my will knit your corpse
Flesh rots, bones break, skulls sigh, spirits take
let the power of my will give you direction
Flesh rots, bones break, skulls sigh, spirits take
let the power of my will cheat your death
Flesh rots, bones break, skulls sigh, spirits take
by the power of my will, arise my greater minion!"

Part of our goal with V8 is to add in more 'cinematic' incantations, abilities, and opportunities. People don't have to RP, of course, but doing this sort of thing (along with Look The Part) gives people an easy way to do so if they want it. It also adds more of that medieval/fantasy flair to our game.



Yes. The 'touch another person to affect them negatively' spells and abilities are all going away. I think that's an improvement.



We added a big paragraph on building and playing a character to V8. You could always write more about it, of course, but it's hard to do without stifling people. We want to encourage them but not box them in. The game types themselves are more a function of what people want to play. I guess you can dismiss entire parks and kingdoms as 'attention deficit'.



Systems are made up of line items just like books are made up of sentences. Your suggestions so far are that you miss Wind and Touch of death. What else do you have?



Sure, maybe it's 7% or 4%. Maybe it's 110%. It depends on your perspective, how you are defining the change, and a number of other things. The most important metric is "are people having fun" and "does it feel like Amtgard when you play it." So far the people who go into playtests with open minds have come back as a resounding 'yes' for both of those. This weekend at Eagleshire we played FIVE V8 full-class battlegames. People were having so much fun in the 105 degree heat that they didn't want to stop. We did more battlegaming than ditching. When was the last time you saw that at a stick jock park?




Some people are always change adverse. If you're saying that some people would enjoy a different atmosphere than Amtgard provides currently, I can understand that as well. I've been telling you for years that you might enjoy NERO and you should give it a try. I thought it was fun when I went, but it's not my cup of tea. Lots of people acting self-important and taking themselves really seriously. Less Amtgard, more Twilight.

Okay Brennon… You Win!
I must really be the only one in the entire history of Amtgard who has felt, seen and experienced what I have felt, seen and experienced.
Ya know, I could whip out a list of names…
But none of them would talk to you, Brennon.
And…
Since no one else has stood up and said… “Hey Brennon, you’re wrong!”
I guess you’re right, everything prior to your involvement in creating 7.0 and now this new V8, have been nothing but crap. And that’s why it needs to be fixed so badly.
No one but Spar & Blaise ever did anything worth note and you’re just here to make sure everyone has Fun…!!!
Too bad both of them quit Amtgard.

Thanks for setting the record straight for myself and all us “Yokels” here in the Hills.
I’m sure Docsi & Zelodie agree with you 110 %.

We’ll be sure to follow all your new rules when the time comes.
Thanks again for being so good at “rules”…
I know I’m not the only one who appreciates what you bring to Amtgard.
Which is why EH lost 50% of its members right after 7.0 came out.
I could list all of those people as well, but they won’t talk to you either…

To anyone out there who might have a clue about what I’ve been trying to impart to “Mr. Logic Monger” and “I do Rules” *but not garb*…” Brennon… aka “The Fonz”

To you Role-players who actually like to fight & play what we used to call “Amtgard”…
And you still don’t like NERO…!

To anyone who thinks that V8 sucks major assassin butt…

You’re in luck…
That’s right, some of us from the “old school” and others with a hunger for what we had, and what the Brennonites can’t seem to offer…Let alone wrap their minds around…
For all those people… or even for those few people.

Some of us have been working on the preliminary framework for something much closer to a Live Action Character Driven Role-play Adventure with a base-line of rules for a loose structure, freedom of creation and persona development.

If you are interested in something with more depth and less short-attention-span…
If you long for something with more Soul and less Brennon…
Join those who will create the next Realm of Fantasy Combat and Roleplay…!!!

So far, everyone who has seen it has loved it.
“It’s so much more like what I thought Amtgard was supposed to be.”
That has been the most common response by Everyone who has read through the first draft. As this project has grown and picked up steam, more people have added material from their own expertise and I expect even more great ideas to take shape.

So, if Ya Hate V8…
We’ll set you straight.

Want to know more…
Contact Me and I’ll give you all three scopes.

just sayin’

Hey, that's awesome. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors. I think it's great when people strike out on their own and follow their dreams far away. Good for you!

"I think it's great when people strike out on their own and follow their dreams far away."

Why, thank You Brennon...
But I think you're a bit confused.
I'm not on my own and I'm not going Anywhere.

just sayin'

You know I don't usually like to get involved when you two get into it, because small people like me can get hurt real fast. However I feel like I should add my own two cents. I have noticed a large drop off in the amount of atmosphere from the game in the, well now let's see here started in September of 1994, hmmmm seventeen years I've been playing. I may not know much, but I do know that when I started in Gryphon's Haven Golden Plains there seemed to be more attention payed to trying to emmerse ourselves in a world of fantasy. Now let me explain what I mean by that. First of all I know for a fact that we had way, way more quests back then. One of my most stand out memories was a quest we had in Pampa where we incorporated every park that ran through the center of town as a new level in the quest with a new goal and monster to be taken down. This quest was mostly memorable because I got electrocuted by a lightning strike, and I mean for real not I got hit by a lightning bolt magic throwie. I also will never forget the first time I ever met Kabal. That was at Dustin's last coronation, and a quest was a major part of that event. Matter of fact that's how I met Kabal, he was playing the singing bar tender in the tavern which was serving as home base for the quest and nirvana. So yeah it does seem like over the years there has been a change in the way this game is played. Is that becuase of the rules, is it because a lot of the "old" people who liked that sort of thing aren't involved, or is it a combo or both or something else entirely? Hell I don't know, and I'll leave that to the armchair Amtgard philosophers, so I'll leave that for myself to ponder alone on the toilet. Anyhoo, I for one have notice a change from an emersive roleplaying/combat oriented game to a more "here's your position and what it does" sport like Quidditch match on steriods. And there's my two cents.

_________________
"A mind needs books as a sword needs a wetstone, if it is to keep it's edge.”
Tyrion Lannister

I do not suffer fools gladly, and fools with white belts never.

Mortem proditoribus.

So I've heard several people (Fenris, Garm... now Delphos, and of course Brennon) talking about writing new rules. I've only seen one set put out there publicly.

Just Saying.

_________________
DarkTigger

I would definitely be interested in reading what you've got outlined for your new game. I'm always interested in seeing how other game systems operate and what their rules are like.

You can PM me a copy/link here or email me a copy/link to Brennon@Midnightsun.org. You can also just post a link here; Amtgard is pretty inclusive and wouldn't mind another game having their rulebook linked.

Thanks,
Brennon

I'd like to point out that Croatian Amtgard (using the current rules) is as good a "Live Action Character Driven Role-play Adventure" as any LARP out there.

Amtgard in the states is not.
My point is that it is not the Rules of Play that changed that part of Amtgard in the US. It was a change in culture. Our rules set doesn't (and shouldn't) define our culture/roleplaying. We just need to guide it to where we want it to be.


-Talen