The Kingdom of the Emerald Hills

Let's have a reign of no one under 14 playing the game and then see where we are. If a couple of 13 year olds next reign have what it takes, great. (end quote)

the problem there is that most of those kids wont come back. I mean would you? If you had been playing for a yr, and someone who didn't know you said "no, sorry you cant play come back in 2 years" would you? Not only would we lose those kids, we lose their parents, their friends, their friends friends, and so on. As such we lose a valuable recruitment drive that the Kingdom sorely needs. We have gone from events in the 100s and park days in the 40s at each park, to events of 50-75 and parks of 10-20. We need everyone we can get and train.

Am i asking for kids to play mainstream, kingdom event amtgard? NO, i want them to play at their home parks, with their friends and supervising parents. King Morgan has said no, fine....I interpret that as no kids on Kingdom days (royal visits, weapon/dragonmaster, and events) As per the ambugious rulebook and copora, i think that park monarchs should be able to decide whether or not they want kids, as they are the ones to deal with them on a daily basis.

First on the technical side:

It isn't ambiguous. Each park has a contract with the Kingdom. Each park agrees to abide by the rules of play and the Corpora. The Monarch (Kingdom) is the recognized president of the organization. If he says he will not grant permission for a player under 14, then, by the rulebook, they can not play Amtgard in any park in the EH. A monarch (local) does not have the power to override that descision.

Now on the loss of players:

I don't think we will lose them. If they like it so much, they will want to come back and play aginst the people who said "You are too young." just to prove us wrong. But again, it isn't that the kids under 14 can't play. It is that the can not engage in combat with adults. They can have a kids quest, do A&S, do service for the club, etc.

The one restriction that Morgan is upholding is the rule that no one under 14 may play without the Monarch's permission. So alternatives need to be found to keep the kids interested. the LAST thing we should be doing is saying that we are going to ignore the descision. What does that teach the kids? that we get to pick and choose what rules to follow? not an example I would want to set for them.

So the kids can't "swing foam" with the adults. Now, given that one restriction, show me some solutions. Show me that you can think outside the box and keep the kids interested in the game. I think you can do it.

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Forest Evergreen

Puppet Master of the EH

"Of course you are Forest. You're like the Mr. Burns of EH." - Finn

(insert titles and awards here)

The Corpora is only concerned with age when it comes to holding office.
In the Corpora, Section II, Paragraph A, Clause 7, the Monarch presides
over all functions.

Would you call a park day a function?

Would you say that Kingdom office takes precedence over subgroup
office?

Page 2 of the rulebook says that minors under the age of 14 need the
Monarch's permission to participate in combat. The Monarch has not
given that permission, and has stated he will not do so.

Would you like to elaborate on your stance of document ambiguity?

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==

Rayel

it is ambigious in that it makes no distinciton between park monarch and kingdom monarch, both offices have the same title and duties.

I feel that the King (monarch) has the right to set policy for Kingdom events, much like the Kingdom Champion is in charge for those same functions when it comes to quests, and Kingdom Battlegames.

Park monarchs (sheriff, baron, and duke) are responsible for the day to day operations of their park.


As for out of the box adaptations: An idea was raised and supported by the kingdom champ. but was diavoed by the regent and nothing has been heard of by the monarch.

so now we go to option 2: we have been asked to hold kids games seperate, but this too is in violation of the mandate, as there can be no combat by under 14 kids.

so option 3: i have talked to several of the kids invovled and asked them to take a reeves test.

so option 4: have the kids page. I dont feel this to be viable as picking up after someone else gets real old real fast.

so option 5: have other things for kids to do, ie arts and crafts etc. the kids have a desire to fight and play in battlegames.

so option 6: no kids at the park not an option as this will make the parents leave to.

this has all been well thought out and hashed throu by the people involved. However we are recieving no communication from the Monarch in our attempts to work out a compromise.

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"Passion overrules Reason" wizard's rule #3 of the Terry Goodkind series "Sword of truth"

I'd thought the term "subgroup" was pretty clear
(Corpora, Section I, Paragraphs A and B)

At first blush, this mandate inconveniences
two people at Midnight Sun, as a lot of our
younger players walk to the park or catch
rides with older siblings/friends, rather than their
parents. Then again, I believe the youngest person
at MS is 12, not 7 or 8.

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==

Rayel

It doesn't take into account there are said duties for the kingdom monarch, these are said duties for the park monarch, there are said duties for the kingdom regent, park regent, duties for kingdom champion, park champion. It isn't made clear until the equivalents. If it's assumed that it is kingdom only then it needs to say that and then there is no reason to have any park officials at any park since that means it would imply they are not needed. Then the responsiblity of everything goes back to the kingdom not the park. It should specifically state these are kingdom duties and these are subgroup duties. It's not clarified. I read the damn thing several times and I don't see the disdinction under the Offices of the Kingdom just says Monarch, Regent, PM Records, PM Treasurer, Champion, etc.

our youngest is around 10 i believe.

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"Passion overrules Reason" wizard's rule #3 of the Terry Goodkind series "Sword of truth"

well, since this is the Kingdom copora, it's not concerned with the duties of non kingdom office, nor should it be. And while yes, there are duties for each officer both in Kingdom and park level positions, BUT I still don't understand where any confusion still exists on this matter. Kingdom takes priority over park. If the King makes a ruleing, parks must abide or violate their contract.

If it's really that confusing, relate it to real world. King=President, Park Monarch= State Governor. Now it should be much simpler for you to understand. Laws may be put in place by the State Governor unless it conflicts with a federal law put in place by the President.
Prime Example: Alaska has a state law where up to 24pot plants can be kept for personal consumption and is protected under Alaskan right to privacy laws, however the United States government says pot is illegal. Guess what happens if you get busted in Alaska? The state doesn't do anything, but the federal government still has full power to punish. Same thing applies to the game. Your park can make a decision on how they want to run things, but if the King states policy forbiding the decision your park made, sure they can ignore the King if they wish, and can get punished for it anyways....



You mean like how we don't need city mayors and state governors because we have a president.... I mean, come on, use some common sense. The Kingdom offices take priority over park offices. Mandates from Kingdom office MUST be followed by park officers otherwise they violate their contract.



How can you not see a distinction? Offices of the KINGDOM... pretty self explanatory right there. I just don't understand how you still see this as a gray area.

Now, here's an idea. I would ask that your next post not have anything to do with "how confusing the copora is", and I would ask Kenta's next post not to be anything about how unfair his kids can't play anymore. Instead, why don't the two of you sit down and try to suggest ways the kids can still be included.

Here's some suggestions from someone who doesn't have any kids, doesn't want any kids, and definately doesn't want kids on my battlefield. But if I can come up with alternatives to keep kids involved then both you and Kenta should easily be able to come up with a handful of suggestions.

1) Talk with the King about hosting special park events specifically for the kids. Back when I was champion of IronCloud we organized "A Day in the Park" and had water-baloon fights, super-soaker battlegame (think normal battlegame, but no amtgard weapons just supersoakers. 1/2 lives, and alka-seltzer tabs threaded on floss to make a "Life counter necklace". You were dead when your tab fell off the floss. Kids had a BLAST and there was NO amtgard combat.

2)Say the kids can't fight and get stuck paging. Sure, picking up someone else's junk can get boring quick, so make a game out of it... Like whichever kid retrieves the most spent equipment as a page in the month of February gets a new tunic, or something like that.

3)There is still a full HALF of the game that's still fully open to everyone, regardless of age. A&S is just as much a part of the game as combat, and they can still participate. Sure, it's not combat, but it still keeps them involved in the game, and even can help develop skills they would normally ignore.

4)Just because it's amtgard equipment doesn't mean they have to play amtgard with it. Setup an obstacle course or some other contest. Have a spell-ball toss competition. Have target practice.

5)Start working with them now teaching them how to make everything they'll need when they are old enough. Sword/Shield/Garb making workshops. Persona history workshops. Make&takes... stuff like that.

6)They can't fight. Fine, run a kids-only ROLEPLAY quest. No amtgard combat, just their brains. Maybe give each child a specific class ability they can use a limited number of times (helps them learn the abilities beforehand so they'll be better prepared when they can fight)

These might not be the best suggestions in the world, but this is 6 viable options (with monarch consent of course) coming from someone who can't stand 90% of the kids out there, so if I can come up with input to keep them involved...




And now, I have a question for you, Kenta. as the biggest opposition to this ruling, I have to ask why the age restriction of 14 is such a big deal to you, seriously. I mean, it was decided looooong ago that 14 was the cutoff point, and has been that way for the 10 years I've been in the game, and I'd be willing to bet it was probably like that for the 10 or 15 years before I came around. This is in no way a new rule, and I just don't understand why you're so shocked by it. People might not like 14 being the age, but that's what it is and has been for years, so why the sudden outrage? I mean, when your kid turns 16 and wants to drink a bottle of Crown Royal, are you going to go get it for him because it's unfair that he has to wait a few years before he can do it legally? When he decides he wants to start smoking at 15, you gonna go buy him his first carton because it's not fair he should wait for a few years when he's old enough to buy them legally? When he turns 14 are you going to let him borrow the car to go to the movies, because it's unfair he has to wait a couple of years to drive legally? So please explain why not being allowed to fight (under the current monarch) because they're too young to do so legally according to the rules of the game, why is this such a problem for you?

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Draeven
"If you don't think drugs have done good things for us, then take all of your records, tapes and CD's and burn them" - Bill Hicks

"Until we stop viewing making a knight into a non-knight a fate worse than death we'll never be able to clean up knighthood." - Glen

"have a post of ideas" that is like so 2 posts ago.

"why the particular outrage? All of a sudden? I think not. again for the slow learners....these kids have been playing for 1 to 2 years.

So you are telling me that the state of Calfornia is in the wrong for allowing same sex marriages after President said aint gonna happen? Wow, maybe someone should tell them huh?

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"Passion overrules Reason" wizard's rule #3 of the Terry Goodkind series "Sword of truth"

no actually, you made a half-assed attempt to bring some ideas, and then immediately discounted your own attempt... No, I wanted a REAL attempt at REAL solutions...



ok. So they've beem playing for 1 to 2 years. Guess what, the rule was in place then just as it is now. Previous monarchs have granted permission, but any one of them could just have easily made the same decision as Morgan. Now, as a parent, shouldn't it be YOUR job to make sure they understand that yes special permission had been granted by those in office, but it doesn't guarantee a future monarch might hold the rule fast. It should be your responsibility to make sure they understand that just because they're allowed to play today, they're under the minimum age to participate and there's no guarantee they'll be allowed to fight tomorrow... at least not until they reach 14.



You really need to work on your reading comprehension. I realize you're in a big hurry to be right but but you really need to start paying attention to what's actually being said, not what you "think" we mean. Just stop for a second and reread my previous post. I never said right or wrong, I said legal and illegal. Yes I understand those concepts CAN be the same thing, but does not mean they ARE the same thing. I mean, I can walk up to your kids and tell them they're "ugly, stupid, great inspiration for birth control, and little shitbags that should've been drowned at birth," and would not have done anything illegal, but I'll bet most people would still find my actions wrong. No, I just said quite simply that State law doesn't override Federal Law. California might allow same sex marriage, but the Federal government doesn't recognize it. Guess what, if the same-sex married couple moves to Texas, their marriage is no longer recognized and they don't get most of the rights that others in a "traditional" marriage do. I'm not here to argue right or wrong, that's a moral decision you have to make yourself, I was just pointing out that sure, you're free to ignore the king's ruleing (as you've repeatedly stated intention) but the king is within his authority to punish your park for that transgression.

So, I ask again, you just want to sit here and bitch and moan about Morgan's decision, or do you actually want to be productive and try to come up with solutions to this issue? I mean we can all sit here and pick each others posts and arguments point by point for days if that's how you want to continue, but I honestly think the time would be better spent trying to work towards some compromise or even try coming up with other ways to keep the under 14's interested and involved outside of combat...

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Draeven
"If you don't think drugs have done good things for us, then take all of your records, tapes and CD's and burn them" - Bill Hicks

"Until we stop viewing making a knight into a non-knight a fate worse than death we'll never be able to clean up knighthood." - Glen

Much like Federal laws trump state laws, the Kingdom Monarchs position trumps that of the park Monarch. There are some exceptions to this rule, but is correct more often then not. California's domestic partner laws are not against the President as there is no federal restriction in place at this time.

The monarch has stated that no persons under 14 shall play Amtgard in the Emerald Hills this reign. For those with children younger then 14, this means you have to come up with alternate things for your children to do while you play Amtgard. This can be in the form of other activities at the park that the parents decide to sponsor that are not part of the normal Amtgard battlegame or ditch. If you need help with this, I am sure that the Monarch would work with the park level officials to try and come up with a side thing for the kids that are under 14.

If your children have played Amtgard previously and are under 14 years old, please remember that this was because of the ok of the Monarch. The revocation of this was because the current Monarch had seen too many issue with underage players. If you have children under 14 who played, you should address your children's past performance and see if they were part of the problem. If they were not, then make an appeal to the Monarch on their behalf to get a waiver.

People under the age of 14 do NOT have a right to play Amtgard. According to the basic rules of play you MUST be 14 to play. I understand that some players have children and their Amtgard experience is made more difficult by having children. It is your responsibility to make arrangements for your children in order to participate in Amtgard, not the Kingdoms.

Ok wow how about insted of all the bitching and attacking each other why not get in contact with morgan im sure some one has his number and try to solve the problem maybe even find a happy median like they can play at park level but not kingdom and find out exactly what the under 14s are allowed to do attend the BOD meeting and talk to them there is so many better ways then bitching to get things done so put away the personal problems that people have towards one another and try to help the kids instead of bitching about the other adults

~Exile

The kids quest at TKM will be a scavenger hunt style of quest. I would love nothing more than to have a true kids quest. However, I highly doubt there will be enough children involved to play both monsters and questors. If there is then great, and I can run with plan B. There are options under Morgan ruling you just have to find them.

We ALL need to find something for our children to do that is Amtgard. If there aren't enough of them to hold a decent battle game or ditch then go recruit more! If their not interested with the cultural side, find out why? This is the perfect time to show them that if your going to play this game you need garb, weapons, weapon covers, and etc. Wow then they are being exposed to the cultural side of sewing, weapon construction and so on. You do this now, so they can see both sides of Amtgard and how important each is.

Tria

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Trianna Allensworth

Trianna,

On the A&S side is not a problem. All my sons do some sort of arts and sciences. They make weapons, they cook, they take pictures, they draw, they do origami, etc but it's not want they want to all the time.
No offense in what your doing for kids quests but it sounds like it's geared towards 4 to 7 year olds. I'm sorry if that is incorrect but I've only heard a little of what you have done and don't know for sure.

Why mention TKD of my two oldest sons. They are put in with other blackbelt adults because they hit too hard to be put in with kids their own age. It's very true, when they took their black belt tests they had to fight/spar other adults. It was hilarious to see my oldest take down a 40 year old man (to get an idea of the guy he was at about 6' tall and about 200lbs.) and the guy failing the match was not awarded his black belt and that he had to retake the test at a later date. Just thought it was funny and I'm very proud of my kids and their accomplishments.

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Lady Mistress Crimson
Prime Minister of MWG
ORK Goddess
Mom to most of the Mourningwood Glenn Goblin Horde
Ilharess Qu'ellar Renor Cryso
Mistress of Garb aka Master Garber (I am a proud Artisan)

No, actually just the opposite. The kids quests has always been geared towards 10-13. I normally don't get that many, and so I have to lower the expectations for the quest. But the purpose for the quest is to allow older children to experience a quest similar to what the adults would be getting. It is something to teach them, not a sitting service. I will admit that has never happened, but I strive for that every year. I have a 13 year old so I understand the frustration of that age group not having anything to do.

Trianna

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Trianna Allensworth